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38 comments:
If these two start dating it will definitely help Price become a better person, under Brad's good-hearted influence. That would be a very hot coupling; Greg may need to start publishing a separate adult graphic novel issue of Kyle's B&B - where we get to know the residents intimately.
It's nice to see more of Delia - when is she getting her romance?
From the very beginning I remarked what a made-in-heaven couple they are... they are so Lucy and Desi. Of course, they may eventually end up like them, like all perfect couples do but, in between, there would so much fun for everybody!
Carles.-
Why would the people here think that they make a good couple? Outside of the fact that they physically good looking, they seem to have nothing in common. (1) Brad is still in the minors and in the closet and remains the most underdeveloped character within the strip and is dense as a brick.(2) Price is a known liar and manipulator. It seems as if most gay men are attracted to drama like some bad soap opera. They can't seem to function without it. The only advantage I can see to this is the fact that they can take some attention off of Drew and Lance(thus far the only REALISTIC couple in this strip)...but hey they look good in underwear which should count for something...
Jack
Yes! Brad and Price...would love to see them as a couple...playing lacrosse and other games in their jockstraps. Love the way the storyline is headed.
They make a good couple for the same reason that Breyer and Kyle, or Lance (Lance!) and Drew, or... they are good looking, and seem to have nothing in common.
Carles.-
They make a good couple for the same reason that Breyer and Kyle, or Lance (Lance!) and Drew seem to make a good couple too..: they are good looking, and seem to have nothing in common.
Carles.-
I am in agreement with Carles. Considering that the comic comes out every two weeks, it isn't the usual Sunday strip with feel good funnies. These characters aren't one dimensional and stagnant in their beliefs. Besides, what kind of story would be that interesting if no one ever changed?
Coming from my experiences, having dissimilar interests doesn't exactly mean they aren't compatible. My partner was a career fireman before moving to my state. He loves the job and is starting a collection of memorabilia pertaining to his time on the job. Me, I'm more into cooking, holistic medicine research and bodybuilding - and yet here we are, still in a committed relationship.
Carles: an leopard cannot change spots and a zebra can not change stripes. What's with this "make Price a better person routine?" Price tried to run his best friend's business, tried to sleep with both lance and drew, ruined the wedding cakes of another individual. Don't get me started on Brad. Ugh. On 2nd thought, they deserve each other. But it'll likely end up in frustration, a lot like most gay male relationships
Jack
Lol. Looks like someone is mixing genetics with their own morals. I mean, by the same logic, a chameleon or octopus can't change pigment,arctic foxes and hares can't change with the season. I'm pretty sure these people can change.
People do not ever change, they only reveal something that the other people never thought that was there, because people try to reduce everything to one single noteo dominant note.
Characters, even the simpler ones, are the interplay of different qualities, and qualities are shown "on the move", they are not something that you host like little bugs inside.
Carles.-
People do not ever change, they only reveal something that the other people never thought was there, because people try to reduce everything to one single note or dominant note.
Characters, even the simpler ones, are the interplay of different qualities, and qualities are shown "on the move", they are not something that you host like little bugs inside.
People's lives are not ingredients just there for you to judge them, it's the cooking that matters, and it depends in part on the people and circumstances around you to develop more or less fully and properly.
Carles.-
So, Jack, we usually do not talk so much about other people as about ourselves when appraising characters: only Greg Fox God knows how Price really is but, in real life, one can show oneself to be an angel or a bastard from opposite character motivations.
One person can be a very nice by mere cunning, and if that person turns out to be a Charles Manson, are we going to say it is impossible because people never change?
There are many reasons why the opposite may turn out to show, and the problem is not what lies beneath which, I agree with you, never changes: the problem is what you take to be rock bottom of someone's personality.
Carles.-
Carles: if people do not ever change them is safe to say that individuals committing heinous crimes will always be indigents...you refer to the dominant note but Price dominant note has been nothing but lies and manipulation. So i guess that's the "bastard" part. Right?
You talk about change when he hasn't changed. Outside of the fact that he's always naked, what redeeming quality does he have? None. But people will continue to make excuses based on looks alone. It's one of the reasons to which gay men are so messed up and why relationships don't usually Last beyond a few months....
He has not reached his rock bottom yet. Because if he did, he'd apologize to the MANY individuals that he has burned and he hasn't. THAT'S what redeeming qualities are about and again it is likely the reasons to which people like him will likely go through friends and relationships like water and people like that usually end up spine before old age. It's called burning bridges....
Jack
I am not sure I get that reference to criminals and indigency: Patrick Bateman and some other criminals in real life never suffered any sort of material deprivation.
Again, you take what you see for what it is, when you refer to "dominant note". I talk about change IN YOUR OR OUR OWN PERCEPTION, not in the subject or object of our perception themselves.
That childish habit of going around pantless like a destitute kid while, purportedly, being a very rich brat, I would not go so far as considering it as a "redeeming quality" (you seem so eager to bomb into conclusions), not as something hinting at a nicer, more easy-going character, but merely as something that doesn't fit into a simple Alexis Morrell Carrington Colby Dexter Rowan character.
You assumed the "rock bottom" of his character to be the same as the coating part: to you, Price is all evil frosting. Did you think a character like Lance could ever have that weepy college love story in his background before he met Drew?
My point, again, is not that Price is, behind the appearances, a nice person but, that all you take for granted and all the actions that you take as sure pointers at a certainty, are in fact not necessarily conclusive.
You know, your attitude shows that the world is so bad not just for "bad" people, but more for people who take themselves for for righteous than their own minds and morals would entitle them to be, and I am not talking about lack of schmaltzy loving and forgiving qualities, but about a lack of good reasoning qualities that would make them understand the people and their acts in the world.
It's up to God Greg to decide how interesting a character he makes of Price, while remaining coherent with what we have witnessed so far of his bitchy actions that you take as hair and stripes all together.
Carles.-
So... is 'change' not synonymous with 'evolve'?
Will a bigot never have the potential to view the world differently?
Is there no such thing as a person able to transform their schema/paradigm?
What I am hearing is that Price will always be 'not nice' and thus deserves nothing good because of it. Isn't that pushing our own moral relativism hoping karma intervenes?
Can a person change?
-Yes: it can take a bit of time, it can take a lot of effort to overcome old patterns, but people can change
-No: Those who can't see past themselves; being obstinate, inflexible, uncooperative. Basically a one-dimensional character.
Carles: you write some lung posts but...for one thing, i used an analogy do follow along.....
You seem to go off in a tangent on a whole bunch of human behavior but totally disregard Prices ACTIONS which up to this point has been downright arrogant and evil well beyond anything that any character including Lance has done. You want to give him another chance when he has not done anything to deserve it. Are you trying to deny that he deliberately caused people to dislike him? Why are you excusing ill behavior?
You say that he's a nice person behind it all but that's what everyone says when an individual commits acts that are at the very least conniving. You say that is not conclusive but isn't it? It was just a few episodes ago that he made a comment about Rudy dying in his room after he was duped. He didn't even want to help open the door to see if he was ok. Is that "evolution" to you?
Don't project you own illusions onto me simply because i don't agree with you. You should learn to stick to the topic which is Prices lack of humanity and aloofness. He'll get a pass because of his skin color, financial status, looks or a combination of the three.
No one is righteous so that's an analogy that I'll ignore altogether...
Can people change yes. But it only comes from insinuating with the self awareness to know that they need to change and thus far, i don't see that in Price whose actions you clearly trivialize in an attempt to downplay his own short comings....
Jack
Price has done nothing to even be considered a decent guy. Please see my earlier response. Actions speak louder than words...
Jack
I demand a flashback to this underwear lacrosse match!
Jack, actions speak louder than words, but the problem is how they resonate in different minds. That was my point. As gay people, we know that, to so many others, our actions seem blacker than they are. I just said that Price's acts are not as conclusive.
My posts are long when the subject of discussion is not as shallow and clear as some may decide it is...
Carles.-
you know, Jack, your clear-cut "logic" about who is bad according to their loud-speaking actions is the exact same that jihadist terrorists use to decide that all American and Western people are evil, because their armies bully Muslim kids, and their Western and American people do not give a damn about it and go on with their daily lives as if nothing happened.
Carles.-
Carles: have i struck a nerve? I don't know what jihadists and other factions have to do with this strip. Back to the topic: Price has shown nothing but buffoonery. You can't expect to have trust when you put out deception. I see you avoided my examples of his actions in my last post. Actions speak louder than words. Why not just admit that you want to see them naked together? I'd be easier.
Jack
Did "I" hit a nerve? I talked about a single logic supporting a wide range of attitudes toward people, reducing them to simplistic formulas in the name of one's own righteousness and peace of mind.
I didn't avoid them, you were skipping them, and since you didn't seem interested in being specific, what I avoided is asking the question that now you are somehow inviting me to ask: what exactly do you consider so loathable and unforgivable about his actions, especially since you yourself admitting he "has shown nothing but buffoonery".
That was precisely my point: you treating him like one would be using bullets against mosquitoes.
Carles.-
Carles: You speak about a wide range of attitudes towards people and righteousness but this isn't about righteousness but for peace of mind one would have to look at the actions of others.
You do indeed avoid them because you know that I made some very strong points about Price and there is no way for you to dispute them. The specifics very presented to you and it's for this reason to which you appear a little unnerved. Do you consider: trying to steal someone else's business, attempting to sleep with another man's boyfriend, ruining the wedding cakes of another gay male to not be loath able? I dare you to answer this question?
The only reason why you all want to see them together is to see them naked in bed together and it is for this reason to which the gay community is so splintered....
Jack
"Trying to steal someone else's business"... like in any common business takeover, more or less friendly?
"attempting to sleep with another man's boyfriend"? in an "open relationship"? no, seriously, isn't that a rather sad move for Price, or anyone else, if the other person implied is not willing to surrender, and more of a further proof of the strength for the couple?
"ruining the wedding cakes of another gay male"? like any spoilt or, merely, impish kid would do?
What I find "unnerving" is the attitude of too many people with easy-trigger morals, who feel totally justified in over-the-top reactions at the slightest "unnerving" act or situation in their book.
I don't give a damn if the brunette doll finally impales or is impaled by the blond doll's manhood: what I am questioning is the righteous attitude of people who wrap themselves in goodie-two-shoes morals to bully some specific people they want or need to consider as some kind of pest... forgetting how that standard would apply to themselves, or to several other millions of people around the world and along history.
Carles.-
Carles: no business take over is friendly. In fact the majority of them represent something more conniving and dishonest. Right?.....
The 2nd paragraph is something that will not strengthen a couple necessarily. It depends on the couple as each individual couple is different. That being said, once again Price was in the middle of it. Right?
Ruining the cakes is childish and yet again we have Price in the middle of it.
This isn't about incorporating morals or even being goodie two shoes but it's more about whether or not Price or anyone of that boorish nature can change when they have not exhibited such inclinations. Are you saying that individuals should allow that mess in their lives with the hope that individuals can "change?" No one is perfect but everyone has a limit as to how much drama that he or she should take within their lives. Right?
Jack
Right, you agree what Price does, more or less nasty, more or less common as it may be, is not something as extraordinary to deserve such scarlet letter on him.
So talk about having exhibited such "inclinations": does that mean you would mind less about them if he had kept them inside? I feel one guy is less dangerous, in fact, way from dangerous, when he so candidly shows up his "inclinations", so that you are advised against his game and its possible consequences. Remember that Terrence-Robert guy who was so nice and loving to
"Limits": such a vague, actually meaningless word used when one wants to imply so much.
So this all goes down, according to you, to a mere question of character tolerance of compatibility: but you seem to forget that there are people who find it impossible to deal with other people who are not necessarily as nasty as Price.
And one last thing: in all my previous references, you avoided my reference to Lance, who is or, "Before Drew", used to "exhibit" the same sort of behaviour that Price has shown so far. I would agree there is something wrong with Price because of his actions, but not for the reasons you are implying and, again, the fact that he is so openly about it would make him all the less dangerous.
Carles.-
Oh, and you totally missed my point, which shows you are not actually reading me and, the more we would discuss, the less you would be able to read and try to understand: my point was precisely, from the very beginning if you bother to read back in my comments, that people do not actually, EVER, change, but that they show up, or people discover in them, something that they never knew or believed that was there, maybe not even the peoiple concerned themselves, more fundamental, more "rock bottom" to their character, so that what actually ever changes is the perception and opinion of people about other people.
Think of all the nice neighbours and friends who turn up to be horrible criminals: did those people "change"? What I am pointing to works in one direction as well as in the other.
Carles.-
So the problem to you, Jack, is not so much about the problem there may be with this or that person, but the problem some people may have with them, and then you seem to agree with be, in a way: I was talking about Price's character and action not being that much of a big deal to ostracize him, and you are merely talking about your own limits, your own degree of tolerance about people like him... your being allergic to people like him.
Ok, so let's not have him be coupled up with the dumb blond: to please you, let Greg have Price meet a guy who can deal with him without all the hissy fuss that you and some others "exhibit" concerning his actions.
I rest my case.
Carles.-
Carles: I'm going to start with the very first response first but I'm going to attempt to culminate the 3 lengthy paragraphs:
You make a case for: "the devil that we know vs the devil that we don't know." This is actually valid however, a devil is still a devil whether it's hidden or not. The analogy of Terrence vs Price is a prime example of that analogy. But I seem to recally Price himself stating "It takes one to know one..." about Terence if I'm correct. So in theory, he still is one crooked individual.
I think that you understand exactly what I mean when I state about limiting such contact of idiots within the lives of other individuals who for a better term are innocent bystanders which is what Brad (UGH I can't stand him) is.
I read your points and I disagree with you. People DO change and can change completely. That is the one constant in life. However, indiviudlas shoud realize that he or she should comoe to the conclusion that such change is VITAL in order to life an enriched life. Lance realized this when he ran from Drew and then decided that Drew was what he truly wanted all along. Lance' main thing was acquisition unlike Price whose main thing was to destroy open. But once Lance came to that conclusion that to live life this way is delusional and damaging, he let his guard down a little bit more but I don't see Price as doing that because with Lance, it was more about not getting hurt and with Price it's more about "getting over on someone" and being cold.
With regards to my own limits. Someone like Price would never have gotten that close to me in the first place personally. But I'm referring to the ACTIONS of individuals as opposed to how someone LOOKS and other things.....
Jack
Carles, don't worry about jack. He's not all there in the head. He only sees his point as valid and makes backhanded insults and commentary to people he disregards (which if everyone).
From what I've been able to begrudgingly get from this character was that he's had some traumatic experiences through out his life and can't cope with people in an amicable manner. Apparently he sees a therapist about these problems, but I find it hard to believe any progress has been made.
He uses words like "prerogative" when anyone disagrees with his points of argument. "Princess" or "queen" if he thinks you're making up drama. It goes through one ear and out the other with this guy. He doesn't concede to facts or at least well thought, fleshed out factors.
If you get him riled up far enough, he'll start racist ranting and name calling.
Whatever....i Really could care less with what you say...
Jack
What you say, Jack, about Lance, is something you realize a posteriori while, before meeting Drew, one could very well take him for a hopeless "anal sphincter": you justify what has already been given as a fact, that's very easy, when Greg has decided that Lance was only shunning himself from getting hurt... I am just hypothesizing Price's case "LOOKS" like a similar case, though I hope the final "explanation" is not as disappointing in its triteness.
I am saying that, with Price, for the "ACTIONS" we have seen so far, he could be just a very spoilt kid because, truly, it takes one to know one (and know I am including myself in that comparison) but no "one" is exactly likeanyone else, and a minimal deviation of character results in wide divergence in "actions".
Let's say, one thing is to be crooked but still supple, another to be crooked and stiff, and another to be crooked and rotten: you can always have layers and layers, and have more or less complexities added or lacking in the characters, and my point, for the -nth time, is that you have reached the final point and got a complete picture with someone's character when, in fact, you still haven't.
I am discussing this only because I think it worthwhile, interesting and relevant to the strip, because it ultimately deals with what people are and, as I keep saying is my main point of discussion, how people PERCEIVE people to be. I kept addressing "Jack" because the counterarguments came from him, and because I did not want to give the impression I was talking to myself... which... well... sometimes is the impression people get from me.
I will end adding something to Mark's demand about that underwear lacrosse match: please, let it be only either jockstraps or boxerbriefs involved, no tighty whities at all and, if possible too, have some redhead, ginger or strawberry blond pitch in too... I find a sad lack of gingerly haired characters, and the closer to that that we get are rotten characters like Terrence-Robert.
I will end adding something to Mark's demand about that underwear lacrosse match: please, let there be only either jockstraps or boxerbriefs involved, no tighty whities at all and, if possible too, have some redhead, ginger or strawberry blond pitch in too... I find a sad lack of gingerly haired characters, and the closer to that that we get are rotten characters like Terrence-Robert.
Carles.-
Carles: No way. I will let you have this delusion about Price. But we all have seen way too many shallow gay men (which is about 85% and counting)to just implode on someone else' life. The main difference that I see about Lance and Price is the fact that Lance earned his way into a lucrative way of life unlike Price who is a spoiled brat. Lance went through bigotry within the fay community and Price never will experience that simply based on color and social privilege so the likelihood that he would learn something as basic as "fellow gay male" is something that will go in one ear and out of the other and you know this...
In discussing this, you refer to layers but thus far, the only layer to which I and other individuals have seen is one to which he is: (A) always trying to get over on someone or (B) Putting someone not on his daddy's social standing down. If that's what gay individuals want in their lives then go for it but that doesn't mean that everyone wants that.
However, if you want me to stop responding to you then just say so and I will make it happen because I will not be attacked simply because I don't agree with you. That's what makes for a good debate and it's one of the very reasons as to why the gay community is so messed up!
Jack
You are the one being delusional about me even remotely hinting at Price "learning" anything: you are obsessed with the idea, the delusion, very common, that people do "change".
About Lance and Price, when two people had the same character, it wouldn't matter whether one of them built it the self-made way, and the other bloomed from the cradle.
About shallow people, if your estimation is correct, that would have to include the general population, not just the gay part of it.
As for "layers" in a character, you confirm that you will stick to what you see, unable to discern or merely imagine anything beyond, which is what about 85% of people do. What you say you have seen of Price is the same surface we see of most people, even the closer ones, in daily life, only that people do not usually care when those shallow layers taste nice, instead of sour, as in the case of Price... there may be shallow people who do not have that much going under what we can commonly see of them , but even in those cases it is shallow not to go below that shallowness, as thin as the character may be.
No way. Keep it going, if you wish! :-) I was just fearing that Greg would be pissed about our little ping pong match...
Carles.-
oh, and about people changing or not, I would like to stress and remind you that people do not change because they are never as good or as bad as they seem: it is only that they reveal themselves as better or worse that people had considered them.
People usually consider that "changing" for the better, but then they forget about people who who would "change" for the worse. If someone is nice, he may remain nice, fine; he may turn out to be a jerk and a criminal, because he simply was either hiding that part of his character, or because some habits and circumstances had prevented him from surfacing those qualities.
C.-
Carles: It's not Greg that makes those statements, it's some of the other people here who silently and idly sit on the sidelines but make no attempt to contribute to any form of conversation. However, Greg can get upset if he wants to. I don't worry about that at all....
Actually, it does matter in terms of basically the same character because you can gain more insight. Outside of the fact that Price had a drunken episode of "vulnerability" with Brad, we have not seen anything remotely resembling a good person. With Lance, we have seen flashed before and it is due to the fact that he has had to work much harder than Price ever did.
With regards to 85% of the gay people, I stand by that statement and this is due to the fact that spotting a good person is very difficult. There are no layers in terms of individuals being shallow, The crazy part is that these people will not rest until they have acquired everything and then they will be even more miserable and this is what Price is: a miserable, misguided queen with delusions of grandeur. The only thing that he has going for him is: (1) Daddy's money (2) looks and (3) white. That's it. Everything else is just a facsimile of a man and nothing more.
Whether people change for the better or worse is something to which is up to the individual. But change however, miniscule is possible. In Price's case, it is very likely that he will likely find another angle because people like him are never content....Change is possible but he doesn't want it
Jack
So the final conclussion of our discussion is that I insist on people having "layers" in their characters, and any "change" that may seem to occur is just the removal, under certain conditions, of those layers, to reveal what was always latent beneath, while you stick to the notion that people simply do change, at least a tiny little bit.
True, someone who boasts money and sohpistication, but whose referent for style is Brook Brothers, and who walks around pantless like a migrant kid of the Depression, is a mess without that much going for him.
Carles.-
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